Preview Mode Links will not work in preview mode

Bourbon Pursuit


Dec 26, 2019

The Bourbon Pursuit team takes a minute to look back on some of our favorite podcasts we recorded this year. We also look at all the bourbons that were released in 2019 (around 55) and Ryan and Kenny vote on their favorite while we have to wait for Fred. Then we take some time to look into 2020 with what we think is going to happen with TTB labels, marijuana, tariffs, and the 3 tier system in 2020. We wrap up the show giving our individual 2020 predictions about barrel programs, secondary markets, and other legalities. Happy New Year!

Show Partners:

  • At Barrell Craft Spirits, they spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. Joe and Tripp meticulously sample every barrel to make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Find out more at BarrellBourbon.com.
  • Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com.

Show Notes:

  • Barrel Picks: https://www.patreon.com/posts/jack-daniels-wow-32305844, https://www.patreon.com/posts/eagle-rare-with-32446056
  • This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about barrel char.
  • What was your favorite episode of 2019?
  • What was the most awkward episode?
  • Bourbons released in 2019.
  • What do you see on the horizon for tariffs and the export market?
  • Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020?
  • Will TTB crackdown on new COLAs in 2020?
  • Do you predict a shakeup in the 3 tier system?
  • Will we see the rise of the big secondary groups in 2020?
  • Other predictions for 2020.

0:00
You know, we weren't drinking whiskey this. I know as soon as we started I was just like, should we stop and get this? I was like, yeah, we're gonna roll let's let's actually we sounded much more cohesive, so maybe we don't drink anymore.

0:23
Everybody it is Episode 233. It is our final show of 2019. And usually during this time of the year, things are winding down, I guess except if you work in retail, then it's a bunch of last minute shoppers, but we still have some news to cover. So let's get into it. Last week, I opened the show talking about the craft beverage modernization and Tax Reform Act being in jeopardy. And we also talked about it in this week's podcast. Well, some hopes have been answered and the tax cut has been approved and extended for one additional year. It is passed in both the House and the Senate. So now, graph distillers can take advantage of one more year tax

1:00
breaks. So we'll see what's going to happen in 2020. It will be furthered again or if it's now time for craft distillers to start preparing for a 400% tax increase in 2021. If anything has the word Weller associated to it, there's bound to be some hysteria that follows. This past week, a new Weller single label that was orange hit the TTB. This caused a bunch of memes to spread like, well a pumpkin spice well or honey and even a Weller jaundice. I'm not too sure who thought of that idea, but the market needs no excitement every single week. Now, there are no public details from Sazerac on this line. So it's still yet to be determined when or even if it will ever be released. The proof and the price point. On the bourbon pursuit side, we're finishing out 2019 with a bang. For the past few weeks, we've been lucky enough to select two more single barrels for our Patreon community. Two weeks ago, we traveled down to Lynchburg, Tennessee to select a barrel proof jack daniels. And to my surprise, these whiskies they're only five years

2:00
result. But we ended up choosing a barrel that was 131 proof and just completely floored us on taste and complexity. It was also a good time just talking to a lot of folks that work there because it was truly an all encompassing experience with humble people who just love what they do. And we did our best not to getting into those is jack daniels of bourbon conversations. Anybody that works there because we knew it wasn't gonna go anywhere. And this week, or should I say last week, we traveled down to Buffalo Trace and selected our first ever Eagle rare barrel. And to keep the story short, we had our team of 10 people, along with Susanna who leads the barrel program with Joshua steely who manages the premier bourbon brands and the infamous Freddy Johnson. It was a split decision all the way to the very end, where Joshua and Freddy ended up being our tiebreakers. You can read the stories for both of these pic experiences with the link in our show notes. And these barrels will only and always be exclusively available to our Patreon community.

3:00
thank you as always to our retail partner, keg and bottle for making it happen. You can read more about them and order whiskey online and have it shipped to your door at keg the letter in bottle.com. And not only that is we're starting out 2020. with even more barrel selections, we have our first 1792 foolproof selection happening on the third of January. So go to our Patreon page, check it out to see all the single barrels that we have lined up and the ones that are be coming in. As I look back and reflect on 2019 it's been a monumental year of growth for the podcast, but it was also the launch of our whiskey quickie series. We selected 19 single barrels from various distilleries, we really 17 episodes of pursuit series, and the podcast. It reached a new milestone of 950,000 downloads in 2019. So thank you, all of you out there that listen and support this podcast. We just couldn't do it without you. We decided to celebrate this very special occasion and buy some new equipment to help you even bring

4:00
better quality in 2020. So we can't wait to start recording all new podcasts with the new gear coming in. And today's podcast is going to be more about looking back at 2019 reflections but also looking into 2020. What was our whiskey of the year? And what do we think is going to happen with things like TTB labels, marijuana tariffs, the three tier system and more in 2020 we covered all in today's podcast, but first, sit back, relax and let's listen for what Joe has to say over a barrell bourbon. And then you've got Fred minnick with above the char.

4:32
I'm Joe Beatrice, founder of barrell craft spirits, myself and our master distiller Tripp stimpson spend weeks choosing barrels to create a new batch. We meticulously sample every barrel make sure the blend is absolutely perfect. Next time ask your bartender for barrell bourbon.

4:49
I'm Fred Minnick. And this is above the char this week's idea comes from Jess or blonde ambition, on Twitter. Great handled by the way blog

5:00
invention, kind of jealous of that handle? she asked, What's the average char for a barrel. Now it's interesting, this is something that the distillers they tend to be very emphatic about their belief in the charring of the barrel. As you know, by law, every barrel has to be newly charred oak in order for it to store bourbon. And there have been a lot of experiments over the years to include buffalo traces, experiment for their experimental line that they store whiskey and in a barrel that was charged for nearly like two minutes and the barrel barely held together. So you can't really have a barrel that's charred for more than a minute, minute and a half in order to have like, decent volume come out of it. So the average char that most people use and that they found that they

6:00
derive the best flavor for them is usually about a char number four or 55 seconds, you'll also hear it called the alligator char. Now you're finding a lot of people really kind of live by the chart number three, chart number three is you know in that 45 second to 52nd range and it gets people a lot more you know, a lot more durability out of the barrel but the wood also gets, you know, when that whiskey gets deeper down there and that line, they tend to come out a little earlier. And I've seen some people do a chart number two and a chart one and to be honest with you, those whiskies tend to be a little greener, you find you find a lot of like a stringent notes and I had typically not been much of a fan of that of those. Of course all that is to say that at the end of the day charring plays, fire little or roll into the flavor of the

7:00
Whiskey then the leaving the stage outside and letting them dry age or the toasting mechanisms. So I think the charring while important, is not the most important aspect of the barrel. And that's this week's above the char Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter, Instagram or wherever the hell you want to at Fred minich just email me on my website Fred MiniK calm until next week. Cheers

7:34
Welcome back to the final episode of bourbon pursuit for 2019 Kenny Ryan and Fred down here in the I don't know is this is somewhat of a new setup for us. So we're trying to invest in some new equipment make it sound better make everything kind of work. So yeah, yeah. Wait until the very last episode. Here to get some new equipment. Well, you know, we're, I keep I keep looking at all the Fred stuff that he has and his new setup. I get jealous.

8:00
Do I get jealous and envious now? Yeah, Mike envy that little bit. It's a little bit of mine. It is at least you know how to turn it on. It took me it took me a while to figure it out to use that damn thing. Yeah, it's all right, we'll get there. But today, what we're going to do is we're going to be going over kind of like a recap of some of the favorite things that we did or we saw or a part of in 2019. Also looking into 2020 with some predictions and some kind of ideas that that I kind of have, and we'll kind of just, we'll take it from there. And you know, one thing that the certain data just originally came or just recently came out, there are now 800,000 podcasts that are out there now. And it's an astounding amount and we just want to say thank you to the listeners out there. Not all bourbon, are they out? Well, I mean, there, there's probably a new one every other day feels like it 800,000 other ones now, but you know, want to say thank you to all of our listeners out there, because we definitely appreciate it and hopefully you continue listening to us more as we go into 2020. But what's kind of one thing I want to kind of look at is kind of reflect back on 2019 a little bit

9:00
Like, you know, Fred or Ryan I'll let you kind of dive in or I'll kind of say a few of them like did you have a like an episode that you were really happy about or you're proud about or really got a lot out of you want to take this further you want me to go

9:14
you know, we had so many great ones. I really enjoyed getting Matthew Ray Walton here at English from WWE. And I, the reason why I I love that is you know, inevitably you're going to have new people come into into kind of like the media spotlight and everything for for whiskey and I I applaud that I want to see new people coming in and, and giving their opinion about whiskey and kind of like furthering the story of what we know whiskey is and who enjoys it. And to have like, someone of that caliber who's on TV like every every week and body slamming people I just think that's kind of cool. And you know, we've become pretty good friends and I just think what he has done for

10:01
Whiskey and continue to do so is is fascinating and I'm also I also it's not just because she's one of my best friends but the Peggy know Stevens episode that you and I did

10:14
notice both of those I was not a bar.

10:18
Well, we were mentioning this earlier, it's very rare that all three together it is and I think it's because, you know, it's kind of like when, when the President goes on the stage to talk, you know, you need to have one of the people in the bag, in case

10:30
too many chiefs. Yeah, there's gonna be one designated survive. Yeah.

10:35
This the Peggy no Stevens episode to me was like, you know, she revealed a lot of things there. That was, you know, she didn't have to. And, you know, I wrote the book, whiskey women, and I think she was she was a reason why I wrote it. She was a trailblazer in that in this world.

10:58
And then on the other side, Jackie's

11:00
I can whom we all three were there when was never a fun one she's always great. She's great and Campbell was great and you know I just got to tell you we had a lot of fun this year and every episode I was a part of and you know, just fantastic for me personally. Yeah, I mean for me one of the one of the ones I really enjoyed the most you know, as as Ryan I started venturing off into the our own little side business as well with pursuit spirits. But as we started really kind of like turning a new chapter for bourbon pursuit as well. Like we're, we're not just interviewing master distillers and it's not all cultural, but we're looking at even like, further behind the curtains of things. And that's when we did Episode 182 with Jeff hoffmeyer, brinda yamo and really talking about like, what's the secrets behind sourcing whiskey? Like we all knew that there were there were source whiskey out there, but not a lot of people knew the process what it takes there. I mean, got every talked about, like the whole like a counterfeit full of or a whole truckload full of like counterfeit rum potentially Right. I mean, like

12:00
There was there's a lot of things that a lot of people just didn't really know about it beforehand. Yeah, that was kind of like

12:06
that broke a little news in our world for for a broker to come out and say that there's counterfeit bourbon out there, and someone's bottled it and we don't know who you know. And as a consumer, it's kind of like, it kind of goes back to that old. That old adage, really only buy wood from people you trust and like, that's why the distilled and bottled by are like a source purveyor. Like the pursuit series.

12:32
Your best What's that?

12:35
But you know, that opened a lot of eyes, I think. And yeah, I totally agree. What about you, Ryan? Do you have a favorite one from this past year? Or maybe the most awkward one? Well?

12:49
Well, I think everyone knows which the most awkward one detail. I don't know which one you'd be referring with a counterfeiter, which, I mean, that probably is I it was awful.

13:00
Doing it at the time because it was so awkward but

13:04
as Fred and I talked about with other people and I think it did bring us three like a lot closer and you know because you know you had some people taking shots at us and questioning and all that stuff so we kind of we kind of bonded over it so that and I think a lot of people enjoyed it as well kind of shed some light on a dark subject of this hobby and hopefully deter some people from doing it but probably my most like memorable and fun one I always am in amazed by the business aspect of this and like I really enjoyed the one we did with coffee just because I've started businesses you know myself and on a much smaller scale than he had with rabbit hole and like this guy was literally leveraging his everything to make it happen and you could just tell like, you know it, it was about to come to fruition but it had yet and later we found out that you know, they were purchased by a printer card and

14:00
It was just fascinating for me to hear, you know, because I mean, it's ballsy to come into Kentucky, where you have the most you know, you have the big boys and literally that in you have no connection to the industry whatsoever. And you just start a brand and in succeed like that, it's pretty incredible. So, and I wasn't on that interview, but Kobe is someone who definitely came in and, you know, made some enemies in the process as well. And like he, and he, but he kept pushing forward and his way and so that story is fascinating. For that reason. He got like, one of these big entrepreneur organizations, you got Entrepreneur of the Year for the whole country. So like he's, he caught a lot of people's attention naturally. That's, I mean, it says impressive and, you know, speak on the business side of things like one of the ones that both you were not there for, but I was one dealing with Episode 223 with Ken Lewis, a new riff and really hearing his story of how he just

15:00
Kind of like just randomly got into the liquor business. And then he eventually sold off the the party sources that now become liquor barns in Louisville. And now he just has that one. He had that one location and said, you know what I want to get into the actual distilling process and everything like that, and then kind of talked about how when he was actually at the party source, how he bought all these barrels of MGP just saying like, hey, like, I don't know, maybe I'll do something with them one day. And you know, lo and behold, that's really what kick started everything that happened in New Earth and they did a clean cut from Okay, to their own product. There was no blending or anything like that, and they're not sourcing anything else. It's just moving towards their product and you know, they've had a strong 2019 as well even going into it from from that side, man. Think about how good their whiskey is to know you know, and they just

15:47
they just kind of came out of nowhere for a lot of people we've we've known about them for sure. But for a lot of people are just like discovering new riff and they're like, Oh my god, this is good. And so that story too, is like it's so rare and whiskey.

16:00
That we see someone who Gamble's at all, and and then their whiskies. Good. Yeah usually it's things we see most of them that that don't succeed you know we get you're like, man I'm sorry you spent your whole life savings on this and make this sorry about that but now it's it's hard for me to remember what episodes got released this year because we record some and some get released and so I'm like, you know, just thinking back because if you're not familiar with our process, we batch record I know you're familiar with it but the audience

16:32
we batch record to me, Vance and kind of release them as we go and just so the audience can know and feel sorry for Ryan and I we've just been bullied into like that we have to plan for the next quarter and right after this and it's like we have to come up with new episodes and and he's been trying to schedule it can he's been trying to schedule this with us for a long time and we have a whole syllabus of like, coming up after the show. Let me get your copies at the door. Have a seat. We're going to go over that.

17:00
what's what's your here's a question for you, Kenny. What is your? What's your favorite moment of trying to get Ryan and I to do something? Probably when I get to call y'all names I'm like, well, you bastards. Finally look at these texts. Charlie, I'm trying to get answers to plan the calendar January. I don't like, like,

17:19
I'm in Disney World Day. I'll be back home said no, but I mean, like I said, finally, like when I get those, I feel like I'm just it's it's always waiting. And then as soon as I get it, I'm like, okay, bam, I can start knocking things out, start getting everything ready. And there's there's a whole process behind it. I just got to make sure that we're gonna add like two weeks buffer, you know, when you try to get stuff done with us. Right.

17:41
But I applaud you for for the person. The Pursuit pays off. Yeah. Oh, there we go. So let's go ahead and let's start, you know, looking at to actually, you know, kind of talk about this too, because I don't want my best Bourbons of the year. I don't know, you know, I know Fred's gonna be recording his you know that we're recording this here.

18:00
About two weeks prior to this actually being released and Fred's going to be releasing his, his best Bourbons and best whiskies of 2019. You know, Ryan, I kind of want you to kind of talk about this too, but you know, I think 2019 was actually a very very good year for American whiskey and bourbon. And I'm I actually wrote down every single limited release and everyday bourbon that got released to and I'm just going to go through this really quickly because I want just to say like, just the gravity of really what went out there. And as soon as I say these things, you'd be like, Oh, yeah, that was actually just like back in February now now kind of rain. So of course you've got the antique collection and you got Van Winkle but you had Cornerstone right Elmer tealy 100th The amaranth grain of the gods four roses 2019 small mash Maker's Mark RC six angels empty cash drink knob Creek, quarter oak, double Eagle, very rare old charter oak series, angels envy Ella Rosso Bardstown bourbon company with their fusion fight for habit more. Bill need had some experimental that came out web saffle eight and Sam from GP for gateway.

19:00
Four releases this year blood oath pack five old Carter had a few Bourbons and rise. Woodford Reserve backer at addition Woodford Reserve batch proof Woodford Reserve chocolate malted, rye, peerless bourbon Weller full proof. 1792 12 year king of Kentucky 2019 Baker's 13 Wild Turkey, Cornerstone right I had on there twice, so maybe I'll take that one back. Old forester birthday bourbon Parker's heavy char rye, Kentucky, bourbon number nine Stranahan snowflake 2019. Remus volstad, reserve bourbon from MGP. And those were all the limited releases. So now we go into just the everyday releases. Old forester rye, crema Kentucky they had two releases this year for roses small batch select heaven Hill bottle and bond seven year Cooper's craft barrel reserve 100 proof Maker's Mark 100 proof uncle nearest 1884 small batch whistlepig piggyback rebel yield 100 proof Woodford Reserve week whiskey decal 13. Year bottle and bond, Jim beans legend Kentucky out confiscated Baker seven and the bullet single barrel program was also announced. And then you also had others like barrel dovetail all the barrel

20:00
releases all Bazell Hayden, Caribbean, right, you had all of the Booker's batches. I mean, when I did account, like we were saying we have options out there. It was like almost like 55 new entrants into the market this year of just limited releases. But there's also a good handful of just every other day stuff. So in my opinion, 2019 was a fantastic year for American whiskey. So there's there's two things two ways to look at this one. Yes, it was a fantastic year. The other way is is that these distilleries are getting savvy about releases Yeah, every every release is a new press release is a new story somewhere it's new and so they're not just like saying like, Okay, we got Woodford Reserve and Maker's Mark, let's go, you know, pushing that so they, they've, they've learned that the consumer base like something new, special and different. And so that's what that list tells me is that some some MBAs and the boardrooms have spotted that and it's the strategies were

21:00
Yeah, I think it also tells us that, you know, they're starting to catch up on their stocks of aging product. They're starting to, you know, you starting to see like, seven, eight year, you know, stuff getting pushed out there that, you know, finally they weren't, you know, eight years ago they didn't have and so I think they're able to catch up on and start releasing some more stuff now. I mean, this was this was just from the big guys, right like this is this doesn't even take account the other 300 craft distilleries or maybe 3000 craft distilleries there are across our nation now. Right. So there's a lot of stuff that was released. And for it, I kind of see what you're saying that this is, this could be a telling sign of what is going to come in 2020 like, yeah, we just named off maybe like 3030 to 40 kind of like, you know, big kind of things that kind of shook up that. It's because it seems like every week that there's a press release, and everybody's like, Oh, yes, I gotta go get this one. Right, right. I mean, even just last week, like pretty much everybody around here. We got

22:00
larceny barrel proof and we got the old Fitz 15 years and it's like, okay, like already gearing up for first to 2020 to go and find new bottles, right? So I guess that's just kind of the maybe that's just a new evolutionary cycle that we're going to see. And I would like to say like what the question to me is like you say that list and we know their strategy, I think what can be very telling us the pricing of each one of those as like. And the one the the big winner of that entire list to me, is the old forester rye coming in at $23. And that's just and we know that Jackie's I can kind of fight for that to be at that price point. And the other ones like you know, where what are their price points, I mean, they're hovering anywhere between 75 and 150. And so you know, a lot of these like new kind of products, they're not really pricing in, you know, the old consumers who brought them to the dance, they're, they're gone for that. That new consumer who's like thinks that $75 is too

23:01
Yeah, I mean, I could definitely see that I mean, I think Ryan and I, we we had this conversation of even before we went in the car when we were just talking about pursuit series and we're talking about like, oh, like what happens if we run out of glass and we just like kill the brand and start a new brand? Like what like what do we do here? Right so there's there's definitely even though it's very smaller scale, we have ideas and things even think about you know, even when that happens, but Ryan, what about you mean is there one of these like everyday ones that kind of like stuck out to you or anything like that is kinda like maybe one of your best whiskies of Yeah, I mean, Fred already mentioned that before sir I mean, it's frickin It's so good.

23:39
I get it in pretty much when I can every cocktail to like it's good both ways. And then the the decal bald and bond I thought was really excellent. You know, and price grade and, you know, the blind tasting of the heaven Hill, bald and bought seven year also proved that it's a very good and you know, at 40 bucks as much to your chagrin

24:00
Right, much to my chagrin, but

24:02
it's really good whiskey and it's $40. You know, like Fred said, most stuff that you got to get that quality is like 7500 bucks. So, you know, that's, you know, it was good. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I guess this will be another question for you all like going into 2020. Can you picture bigger brands trying to come out with more extensions that drive a price point even lower? Or do you think they want to create more extensions that create a higher price point to try and match some of the craft distillers, the Sorcerer's and everybody out there that can't make a price point as low as you can if you're actually distilling it you own these barrels for since they were, you know, basically born at that point? Well, we had to market leaders come out with very lowest price points. Brown Forman, and the Ico so brown Foreman's old Forester, Ryan Diaz, you would be George decal, bottle, the bond and those two kind of like under, you know, let's say $30 or

25:00
$40 price points.

25:03
You know, that was very telling to me, and then you saw beam do that as well, like they're not pricing on collection. Yeah, they're not pricing high. So I do think that there is a little bit of an effort to kind of make us think that they are pricing in that direction, like larceny still like 25 bucks for for the most part most places you go. But then there

25:27
you know there are other things are like 150. So that I think that what you're seeing is, is that you're seeing that they're going to always have something under $30. But they're going to start stacking the chips toward that hundred and $50 market and I think we might start seeing the price go up more because the demand is there in the high affluent areas that places like

25:51
I mean Hollywood, places like Wall Street. So there's like a desire to have this and they and they and that crowd just won't drink it.

26:00
$30 whiskey, they just won't it's timin that's cheap. They're too good for that. And so if if the bourbon industry does not price themselves to be competitive to scotch for those money people, then they won't get them and then so that's kind of like their rationale behind a lot of it. Yeah, I mean, you are seeing a lot of things that are pushing that hundred $50 price point and I can definitely see exactly why they would want to do it too. I mean, you've got to you have to push to kind of get those affluent people I mean, we see it all the time. I mean, we've I always say for myself that I don't have a drinking problem I've got a buying problem and I will always be able to go and if I find any limited edition bottle like even if it's hundred 50 bucks I'll be like, Yeah, go ahead and get it like it. I just don't know i mean, i i have a I have a bad urge. always buy stuff, right? That's, that's just me but at the same exact time, there's always going to be a lot of people out there in the bourbon world that are never going to pass up anything that a price point that is limited or anything like that, too. So I don't know. We'll

27:00
We'll kind of see how that plays out in 2020. So we're kind of moving on a little bit here. So looking into 2020. So one of the things that kind of happened even recently, as even as of today, it's still kind of unfolding, as we talked about that. In 2019. There's been a trade war, we've had tariffs, we've had a lot of things going on that has really hurt bourbon in export interest. And we've talked about it plenty of times of how the export market is really where a lot of growth can be, as soon as you start getting all the scotch drinkers around the world to actually start seeing bourbon as a first class citizen form. And so there's been things have already kind of progressed a little bit today. There's been some stuff with China. We're not going to get too into politics here, but I kind of want to figure out like,

27:45
what do you all see on the roadmap or their horizon for this in 2020? This is very scary as we record this right now. I mean, there might have been, there might have been something that came to fruition, but at the moment in

28:00
In Washington, DC, the craft Modernization Act is on the table to be renewed. And if it is not renewed in craft distillers, I think we'll talk first, what is the craft Modernization Act to because I know I've heard about before I read it, but for everybody, I have no idea what it is. So, basically, this was a so you got a lemonade stand, they give you $5 now, so to keep it to kind of keep it

28:25
to basically to give you like, the the easy version is that a couple years ago, they passed a craft Modernization Act, they basically gave craft distillers as defined by you know, the the government or we AC essays qualifications,

28:42
that they would get less they would pay less taxes, then then the big guys and it gave them kind of a competitive advantage. This was very, very important to them, especially as these terrorists were coming on and they were losing those like foreign markets because they couldn't afford to, you know, to eat the 20 years.

29:00
25% tariff that they were going to go overseas and so there was sunshine clause in that which means that when it's when this period is up, you know, they're going to cut it and or they're going to re evaluate it and that period is up and so now you have craft distillers who are looking who've been you know, taking advantage of this tax and investing it back into their you know, there's like a paying taxes on certain areas and they've been investing it back into their company. And when if that goes away, then they have to you know, there's like a 200 400% tax increase like right away on on like excise taxes and that puts them at a competitive disadvantage. You know, some of these guys have like big corporate support like you know, wouldn't build those now and rabbit hole and people like that, but for the most part, this is very dangerous, very dangerous and and from what I can tell, it is not good.

30:00
Going to may not pass and the other thing is too is that also defined a lot of things in in spirits

30:08
like or in drinks like a define Mead and gave like some definitions to meet and there's also another thing that's happening kind of on the federal level is that they're trying to define what a barrel is and with that would eliminate the basically the smaller barrels and the craft distillers have you know love them or hate them for it but they've kind of defined their ways with those smaller barrels. And so I've always felt like there's a lot of like

30:34
backdoor Washington stuff going on with the big boys you know, the trend kind of cut out is squash some of the little things and because that means you take away those smaller barrels, I mean, he basically eliminate probably a quarter to half of of the craft whiskey distillers

30:51
I guess I kind of like a follow on question to that is,

30:55
you know, you talked about investing into the business, you talked about being able to

31:00
A lot of that money means is dc dc if if this doesn't pass like is 2020 going to be like the year of either sink or swim for a lot of these craft distillers than I do. I mean, I think 2020 is a very telling year.

31:14
And if you don't have money if you're if you're cash flow short, this is this is going to be a bad year. And then the other thing too is like, just what you're starting to see. You're starting to see and you guys are a part of this and a little bit. You're starting to see like independent bottlers come in and they are relieving a little pressure by going to the smaller distillers and buying barrels. So what you're seeing is is like anybody who has some solid craft whiskey, they're actually putting stuff out on the market. So they're getting kind of kind of a band aid effect. They're not helping their brand, but they're getting cash flow by selling 15 barrels to last lantern or 15 barrels to bourbon pursuit to bottle

32:00
Are pursued series to bottle for for upcoming line. And so that that's 111 positive for these guys is that there there's there's a business model there that can help them. But you know if they're new and they're little cash strapped they don't have aged whiskey man I want to be in their shoes tough What about you? Rami? What do you see something that happened with the export market like here? Do you think it's going to get better or worse?

32:33
Well, I mean, I guess it all really it's so hard to predict with the election coming and everything there's so much in the air like

32:40
nobody knows what's going to happen and the dude know we're all going to need a drink.

32:46
Yeah, exact. We're all for that one. It's just so you know, the waters are so unsettled there in Washington, you know, on both sides, and so it's hard to predict anything on with anything with what we have going on.

33:00
In 2020, it's just like, let's all just be nice, you know, in 2020, let's just we're all bourbon brothers, you know, not let the politics divide is but as far as exports, I have no idea because it's, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are sitting back to waiting to see what happens. Yeah, I would think that something in a trade war needs to that sound like an educator responded said a very educated who will let it will let it pass. But I mean, for me, I kind of see this as I would like to see something change. You know, we we talked about it before, I've seen the export market as as the could be the future of bourbon growth. And you don't want another whiskey glut era to say that, you know, a bottle of bullet here in Kentucky or in the United States is $35. And then you go across the seas, and then it's $75 when there's a bottle of scotch for 50. Nobody's going to go Yeah, by the bullet, right. I mean, so well, and I think right now, like Remember, our young said with he said, Well, even though we have issues with exports over there, we can fill a need here and domestically. So you know, I think the need here domestically, still as

34:00
So, so much that it's not really going to affect too many people except for like jack daniels who relies heavily on exports. Yeah, and that is true and they're losing like 120 $5 million. Which, but still for them that's like, that's like one day I revenue probably. But

34:18
it matters. It matters because the world stage the conversation is, is like it kind of goes back to really, you know, the 1950s when these bourbon distilleries were fighting to make bourbon a unique product to the United States and get exports overseas as they were always coming up against the Battle of like foreign governments saying like, you're not whiskey, you're not you're not whiskey. scotch is whiskey. And so so all a lot of this is is a kind of,

34:51
it's kind of an international battle that just hasn't stopped in, you know, scotch and bourbon brands that they're very closely knit and everything but

35:00
You know, scotch is dominant is dominant and it is known as whiskey and bourbon is just like a, like a fraction of what they get. And and, and I don't think that the bourbon brands will ever fully admit this. But they're jealous of scotch and what they have done internationally. It's like Kenny with your MC. Yeah.

35:24
Pretty much

35:27
and they do it with us bourbon barrels. And so they're like, you got our dirty second sloppy seconds. Right? And,

35:35
and so they want they want a piece of that. And as then that's all there is to it, but they're also not in a position to do it. And so like, you know, Al is very smart to say like, we can't do it overseas, which, so let's focus on domestic markets. I mean, that's the it's the right move. I mean, I I'd venture to say places like Boise, Idaho and Bismarck, South Dakota is not right that South Dakota riders and

36:01
South Dakota I left my Atlas upstairs. So I'd venture to say that places like that, you know, you might go into a random place and there's five Bourbons, you know, why not make it 20

36:13
All right, Ryan, I'll talk to you a little softball here right because one of the great conversations that we did have this year we talked about marijuana and whiskey and whether they were going to have an impact on one another or anything like that, but this was actually something that Chris Hart had actually posted out on one of the forums and says, Do you think we will see a marijuana or CBD infused whiskey in 2020

36:36
I mean especially with with all the states that are going to opening up legalization to like it's it's there is a trickle effect happening cbds and everything so I mean, you drive around here and Kentucky I see signs like on every gas station every like I think I saw like a mechanic shops that we sell CBD here or something, you know, it's like

36:55
diversify, diversify. bound. Oh, I guess I mean, if they look if it's legal that you

37:00
I think they will because people, I've talked to people and they'd really seem whether it's a placebo or not, they really think the CBD like works for them and whatever element they're trying to deal with. But uh, you know, I mean char Bay's pretty close to doing it anyway, so I'm not a hobby ever whiskey. And I'm not sure that it will taste good, but maybe, I don't know what to say. Yeah, I mean, for me, I mean, it can't be called bourbon, right? Maybe I don't really know. But can it be called bourbon? If he doesn't if he can't, because it's not really low what unless you're distilling with it right. One of the things that has been done is they take the seeds and they distill it in a in a like, qualifies as a grain under the hemp rather qualifies as a grain as a seed on like some kind of USDA code. And so there have been people who have mashed it and cooked it and fermented it and y'all know me Romans one

38:00
of those that had done that previous previously and then from here's the thing about this, I've talked to a lot of, you know, marijuana people and they don't really want this, it seems to me like, and I'm sure there definitely are people who you know, within the weed business who want to see like infused alcohol. But most of the people that I talked to who are kind of like in the, you know, the luxury lifestyle of marijuana, like trying to like make it be like its own thing, they're like, you know, pair it, but don't, don't combine it they want they would like to see you know, marijuana become like a, like a luxury good as something that you would enjoy recreationally like we do bourbon, and they don't like that a lot of them don't like the idea of combining it with alcohol because that perpetuates like a stoner or a drunken kind of, it's hard to like persona, you know, it interacts with somebody so differently, you know, right. And then you interact you have the two and it's like, well, how do you dose it you know, correctly say, one shot for somebody might like

39:00
I'm trip out and like call the ambulance on themselves or something, whereas somebody else needs like four. And so I don't know, it just seems like it'd be tricky to combine the two were because you can't really dose it out as well. But constellation invested billions into the business for a reason. And they're studying like how how to get it to metabolize the same way as alcohol because, you know, weed metabolizes differently than alcohol, and they're trying to figure out how to make it work. So someone's going to do it eventually. Next Best gummy.

39:31
I mean, so there's, there's, there's eventually it's going to happen. I mean, who knows? Who knows? I mean, I could see it happening. I mean, they're there today, they're already infusing different kinds of sports drinks or anything like that with it. But you know, alcohol is a, as we all know, a very heavy, heavy regulated kind of sector here. So pick up again and get shipping much less and

39:54
using it using it with Oh, gosh, you know, so, you know, this is the other thing

40:00
That I kind of got wind of this. We had a Patreon community person actually sent us a sample of this. And it was called it was from heritage distilling and it's called BSB 103. And it stands for brown sugar bourbon, and it says this high altitude bourbon is flavored with natural brown sugar and cinnamon for flavor kick that will sure wake you up whiskey aficionados looking to try something new. Also, it was only 60 proof and not 80. And this originally just kind of just went through the TTP went through the whole approval process like didn't really say much about it right? Is it is it labeled as like your flavored whiskey or it says it's like the fanciful name is BSB 103. Okay, underneath it and say brown sugar, but it says no, it says like brown sugar, bourbon and like letters and all around. It's what it says everything that it was originally just called brown sugar. bourbon is what originally called they had to rename it to be sb 103. And so we know that this isn't the first time right there's plenty of other instances where we've seen things

41:00
Just a slip through the cracks and yeah there's a bottle and bond like flavored whiskey few years ago. I mean it happens this is what keeps Wade interesting, right? is what keeps him like, you know really like metal. So I guess, do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict

41:23
with the careers of master distiller spanning almost 50 years, as well as Kentucky bourbon Hall of Famer and having over 100 million people taste his products. Steve nalli is a legend of bourbon who for years made Maker's Mark with expertise and precision. His latest project is with Bardstown bourbon company, a state of the art distillery in the heart of the bourbon capital of the world. They're known for the popular fusion series, however, they're adding something new in 2020 with a release named the prisoner. It starts as a nine year old Tennessee bourbon that has been finished in the prisoner wine companies French oak barrels for 18 months. The good news is, you don't have to wait till next year to try it. Steve and the team at Bardstown

42:00
company have teamed up with rackhouse whiskey club rackhouse whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer. Their December box features a full size bottle of Bardstown suffusion series, and a 200 milliliter bottle of the prisoner. There's also some cool merchant side. And as always, with this membership, shipping is free. Get your hands on some early release Bardstown bourbon, by signing up at rackhouse whiskey club.com. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box.

42:34
Do you do you all think that the TTB and just in 2020 in general, do you think it's gonna even get more relaxed or more strict? I mean, I know there's other laws that are on the books but what he kind of sees the head turner patron are going to happen here. I mean, it's with any government agency, its resources like you know that they probably just have limited resources and it's like, you know, with us when we apply for any federal thing for personal

43:00
series like whereas the transfer and bond or state ABC, you like submit it, and you check back three weeks later, like, oh, we're still looking at stuff from six months ago that submit and you're like, what? Like, stuff just moves slow just because they only have like two people working in the office doing everything. So they're probably overworked, overwhelmed. So things just slip there. I think they'll follow the laws as best they can. But there's human error when you know you have that. So there's definitely not a whole lot of automation takes place, even though I will say the TTB did start a new new registering and cola system in 2019. It did happen. So they have a new like portal and stuff like that. But I think the backend work is still very manual process read, do you read to say something? You know, I think for the most part, they do a good job considering that they have like five people, you know, looking at all those labels and God that can't be easy, and everyone gets frustrated with them. And they're an easy target. But

43:53
I always like to go back to the person who creates the label. What are you doing? You know, I mean, you you've been

44:00
agreed to not protect yourself. And if you put that through as as bourbon on your application, then you're in violation of the law. And so, you know, I think we sometimes beat up on the TTP, and rightfully so often. But here it's like

44:19
put, I put the blame entirely on, on on the applicant. Well, and it's, I noticed this other day, you kind of mentioned it like separating, you know, bourbon from whiskey category, like in, I never really thought it was that big a deal until I went to the liquor store. And you go look at the bourbon section, and it's huge. And then the American whiskey center is like really tiny, and it's off to the side. And it's like not, it's not visible, you know, from everything else. And so I can see why someone would work so hard to get that

44:52
slip by just to get that designation because if you're right there, in the midst of what everybody else is buying, versus being kinda off to the side of the marriage.

45:00
Whiskey category I can see where it's worth it. Yeah, I mean, we've we've, we see it all the time. I mean, whether you're coming out with like a wheat whiskey or an American whiskey, something like that, and yet you're not gonna have the eyeballs because it doesn't say bourbon on the label. Yeah, I mean I think that's that's one of the big issues that we do see and probably why there is so much entrance into the market

45:19
then you've got people playing with all kinds of different experimentations I I think I just saw an email this morning about 100% corn, bourbon, I'm like, Okay, I guess it technically is it's bourbon right? But it's just like it's like we're just we're playing with all different variations of this category to try in make sure that everything is still hitting that that Big B word on the label at the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's funny what like once upon a time there was like a limit on like, how much corn you could put in for bourbon. But then that went away a long time ago, but that would not have been considered bourbon back in the day. Oh, I love listening old Fred stories over here. It's like another thing too. I don't think he was around.

45:58
This is like, is like

46:00
barrel entry proof if we if we were to go back to like 1955 more than half of the Bourbons on the shelf today would not be considered bourbon. No. Because it was what like one oh wait a second 115 or something was 110 was the was the legal maximum limit difference for for barrel entry proof and that changed in 62 inches Do you think the reason success of new roof and wilderness trail and others you know because well I guess well as they have a higher Berlin troopers, do you think lower barrel entry proof makes 1,000% I really do. I mean, and here's the thing is it is it is really good. In certain what I have noticed is that's really really good between like three and five years old, and like anything after like eight but that but that six to eight years old, it can be really, really, really flat.

46:50
The the higher barrel entry proof can be fantastic up to 12 years old after 12 years old. That clock is ticking because that it's like it seems somehow absorbed.

47:00
more wood. And Andrew Wilson from Victor's is the best person to talk about this. She talks she breaks it down from a chemical aspect and everything and as you know, makers is going in the barrel of 103 proof which is the lowest in the industry. And it to me it's one of it's one of the more enjoyable conversations to have about whiskey because

47:22
I feel I feel that not enough attention is paid to it but yet the Pete there are a lot more people paying attention to it. And willness Trail and new riff and those little barrel entry proofs Absolutely. Making making nice whiskey. Yeah, I mean, they're definitely making waves when you when you have that because somebody tastes it and you're like, holy crap, this is a four year old bourbon like this is actually really good. Now the one thing that you know, you say you really like it, I say one of the one of the downsides to it. It doesn't have and maybe this is just because, you know, you think of like the stags, the stag, juniors of the world, stuff like that. It doesn't have like that, that link

48:00
Green very long finish where something has like that hard spice to it or anything like that. Like this Like creamy delicate today that's that's exactly right. So you're basically looking at a style and a preference here like do you like that butter style dripping down your jaw line or do you want to feel that? You know, that's punch in the face punch in the face

48:20
cinnamon or something in the here's the thing. I like all of them. And it's like how does how does that one feel on my palate and you kind of like it's just like it's like football you know? They're they're running backs who will run you over in our amazing and then there are running backs who will go left to right, you can't tackle them and they spin and then there are running backs, who all they're good for is catching a pass and blog. There's the Barry Sanders and the Jerome Bettis is the That's exactly right. So like that on a T shirt. They're all great. It's just like what is your preference for your offense or for your palate in that moment? Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely times when I'm like oh yeah.

49:00
I'd like to do like, like something that's, you know, if I'm just sitting there on the couch and I just want to do something that's like, yeah, like you said, caramella, very buttery, sometimes I'll reach for dusty and that kind of aspect. And then there's sometimes I'm like, All right, we're going hundred and 20 proof and above right now. So yeah, there's definitely the kind of situational context for it to write on. So one of the things that we talked about a lot in 2019, is we talked about the three tier system, we talked about shipping, we've talked about all these things. And this is and you know, the the Supreme Court case of the state of Tennessee with total wine and some other ones that were kind of envelope in there, and how this is potentially going to open up the market for some change. Here, maybe in 2020. So I kind of want to get your take on what is there going to be a shake up in the three tier system, can you foresee it happening? Are there too many lobbyists? Will the will the people revolt like what do you all kind of see, I think it's always way I would that, you know, you asked me this six months ago

50:00
I thought we were close. And I just feel as the more I get into it, the more and more the big. The big players involved are just digging in, and they're digging in hard and they're not going to let this happen. I just, I just feel like we got a ways to go on it. I always go back to this and this was in one of my above the chars A while back 46 state attorneys general signed a letter and made it like kind of like their mission for 2020 this DOP secondary sales on Craigslist,

50:35
I just can't even believe that would be on the radar. And you know, and then putting the efforts in the that just shows me that they're like sticking in hard to the three system. It's not. I mean, it's not like they just like put out a press release. I mean, they were doing media, they were putting out detailed plans. They were setting up meetings with the social media entities. And I'm just thinking to myself, I'm scared to death of my

51:00
five year old getting kidnapped in target when my wife is going and Christmas shopping with him. And he's like stuck there by like trying to get in there because that's where human traffickers are there like in places like that. Why are we focusing on that? And yes, is it is there a potential that you know, there can be some kind of like poisoned alcohol out there? Yeah, there is. It's called in the heels of like Appalachian places where people are making illegal whiskey. No one is getting or illegal moonshine. No one is getting that in these like consumer facing forums, and the fact that they are using, they're actually coming out and they're citing Pappy Van Winkle right now. They're citing Pappy Van Winkle in these conversations. And the fact that they are doing that tells me that they don't get it. They don't understand that this is actually a consumer base that is really just supporting one another and not trying to, you know, for the most part not making money

52:00
People who are like saying they're in Maine or they're in Idaho and and they got a buddy in Kentucky and said, Hey, we have no Henry McKenna here.

52:10
Can you give me a bottle, you know, something like that. And there's no effort whatsoever to support the consumer base from the brands from the government from the distributors or anything like that. And that's that's my biggest problem here is like if you want to take off if you want to go after the secondary markets, fine. Okay, that's your that's your Hill. But what about what about like consumers who are really have fallen in love with this?

52:38
With this world, this bourbon world, we get an email every day from someone who just finds bourbon, they listen to the podcast, they want to learn more, they want to find more bottles, and what can we do for them now? And maybe there's not much there's not a whole lot we can do about that. Like, Hey, I read about this great whiskey but you can never get it because you live in Boise, Idaho. I know. Yeah. I mean, I really

53:00
I really want to shake up to happen. And I guess one question I'll point to you back there. Fred is, you know, we talked about these attorney generals, do you think that this is, this is somebody planting that that seed in their head like this has got to be a lobbyist that's happening for the distribution system? Or maybe some of the major manufacturers out there that they're they're planting the seed in their head, and they're kind of distracting them from really what they're, they're putting forth their agenda, not maybe the agenda of, of the people that are actually the consumers, they really care about this. Yeah. And there was also there was an op ed in the local courier journal

53:41
that was published on repeal day from a distributor here that said,

53:47
happy reptil they think a distributor So you started to see like, some like and he had a whole lot better about why distributors are important and they help you. Basically they age gate, make sure alcohol doesn't get in the hands.

54:00
of kids and stuff. And I'm glad they put it in a newspaper. Yeah.

54:06
So only like 10 people are going to read it. Fantastic. Hey, now, come on now, don't be hitting up newspapers where I got my start.

54:15
But you know, so you're seeing you very much singing offensive, whether it's a coordinated thing. I mean, I can't tell you that. But I do know that. These are some of the same efforts. That kind of took down a lot of the tobacco industry in the 90s. Meanwhile, while you have this going on, you also have you have this entirely you have a new group coming out saying like, drinking is bad. Advertising alcohol is bad. And so you have a growing movement of kind of like these consumer protectionist groups that are trying to ban things like advertising, they want to you know, we're just now seeing it on like YouTube, they're wanting to like rip down a lot of

54:56
alcohol related things and social media.

55:00
And so this is also a case of like, a lot of the things that affect our lives are not government related. They're they're company related that we have really, you know, we're really connected in. And so like, if Facebook makes a policy and says no more alcohol sites that in no way is violation of anything and the government, that's Facebook making a decision, and they could do it. So I guess, if you if you're a senator, and you listen, this podcast or your congressman, you want us to kind of you know, we'll we'll have we'll have the team go there. And we'll we'll get in front of Congress will talk about the real issues here. So make sure that so here's here's the thing is that congressman Yarmuth would be very, very open to having a discussion with us. Mayor Fischer, I know his yard I'll talk to him about

55:53
but I mean, these are these are people who really, really would stand up for it, you know, and what you know

56:00
Because it impacts our state. Yep. I agree. You know, and for me, I've said it before being in tech, being able to see the transition of industries that just get disrupted because they rest on their laurels or they tried to defend everything. You know, don't be a Kodak Don't be a blockbuster Don't be one of these companies that just tries to try to maintain the status quo. And when you've got people and you've got companies that are out there that are figuring out ways that they can get around this, they can get around the distribution system, they can ship across states, they can do these things. all it's going to do is have a bigger trickle effect later on, and more people are going to catch on to it. I mean, you know, we're all good friends with Blake over at seal box and I think he's done an amazing job of how he has grown and matured the business a lot more in 2019 to the point where it's, it's running like a very well oiled machine now. And we talked to a lot of companies

57:00
And they're like, how do you do it? Like, what do you do? I'm like, oh, like we knew this, like early on, like we weren't able to get to all 50 states. So we looked at Blake and he can get to more states than we could ever even try to do it the, you know, filing paperwork and waiting for things to come through and opening distribution and then losing our ass on half the product because we had to pay 25% to somebody else, right? And so now people are like, Oh, well, that's how you did it. So now like we're giving Blake a lot more business because a lot of people also Now see, this is how they can do it. Right. And I think some of the even the people that are already there and distributed and now he can't actually do it. Because the way that the way the law technically works is that he necessarily can't buy direct from somebody and sell it unless it's already if it's not already distributed with inside of DC. And so you know, you've got other brands that said like, Oh, shit, we were there too early, and now we kind of like lost our percentage that we could have got out of this business model as well. Yeah, it's just you know, it's it's tough because it is alcohol and yes

58:00
We want to say let's open up shipping, let's do a secondary, but there is a lot of things that need to be well thought out and laps and limited. And so like,

58:08
we just need, we just need some way for, like, let's work towards it versus like holding our ground either one way or the other. Like, let's like right, say that shipping, we have to do it all that way, or we have to know it. There's got to be a middle ground that we can make it work. And one of the reasons why you may never see a middle ground is because you have like these large distribution companies, and that would require them working together in some ways, you know, and that

58:36
they may not want that get on a zoom call figure it out. But here's the here's the the truth of the matter is that eventually, someone brings up the will How can you guarantee that a 16 year old kid is not going to get the bottle off of the doorstep or whatever. And they're in it doesn't matter. Like you can have people sign for it. You can have anything. The minute that

59:00
shipped alcohol or something outside of the three tier system gets into a child's hands. And something happens. It's over. I know, you're telling me like you never had a fake ID growing up. That's just it is like, I will not confirm nor.

59:17
But I'm just saying that that is they're all as always the go to argument, always. And they're like, you know, we protect that. And here's the thing is that they do to a small percentage, but let's go to you can go to any college bar, any college bar and you will find like under age people getting served almost all the time. And any high schooler whose cousin, you know, goes and buys them. So those and they made in the parking lot and so here's a way tech guy, let's get a thumbprint on every bottle of alcohol that you have to guarantee that you're an adult or something like that. Yeah, one open

59:56
or it explodes your hand. Yeah, not not that's gonna be a tough one.

1:00:00
Neil and the other thing that we kind of also, as we're talking on the shipping topic, as well, as you know, even Kentucky and the KDA, they fought to get shipping at a lot of the distilleries that are around here where people can go and they can have their stuff they want to be able to ship out but they don't want stuff coming in. That's nominates the as a kind of oxymoron. But I also don't know exactly like, what the the stats of the details of it like how much is it actually us? considering we can only ship to like, six states or something, right? I mean, it's been ridiculously low. Yeah, there, there's only 6% Okay, so it's like, I know, a couple disorders don't even do it because they're like, I'm not gonna waste my time on six states, you know, or have a shipping package send, right? Exactly, have set up all those resources to be able to just fulfill six, you know, states, but I know it's just surprising. Like, I'm kind of confused. Like, on one side, we're embracing, you know, the vintage law and all this stuff, you know, and then on the other side, where, you know, control

1:00:59
limits you

1:01:00
Being in secondary so it's all just like it's it's it's hypocritical Yeah, all of these laws basically they start out in one place someone opposes it and then it gets compromised and something gives up and so that that law where they could be shipped in it seems like all the laws are just geared it's more favorable for the businesses and other consumers like I'm all for like distillers being able to serve more alcohol ship sell more bottles on property, all that. Okay, that's great for them. But what about consumers, you know, who wants to buy across?

1:01:33
There's not a I mean, there's not a you know, if there was it'd be small but there's not a bourbon advocacy out there. us maybe right. And, but we're not I don't I'm not signing checks or sending checks that you know, to gain whatever pass but there's, there's so many there's so many lobby groups in the distilling business, you know, and there's that there's the a DI there's a CSA, there's distilled spirits Council. There's a

1:02:00
presidents forum this Kentucky distillers Association, there's Texas whiskey association with, on and on and on, and on and on. And they all tell their story and get what they want, try to get what they want. And,

1:02:12
you know, it's not necessarily always what the consumer wants. Yep, absolutely. So as we start rounding this out, you know, there's, there's one thing that I want us to do is like, what is your big prediction for 2020? Right? And I know, and I'll go first, and I'll kind of kind of set the ground and you can kind of pick what you want. And it could be it could be anything, it could be anything that you kind of see with inside of whiskey or bourbon or yourself or I don't know, whatever you want it to. But for me, you know, one of the big things that happened this year, we were a part of it being able to be on stage or you know, being at bourbon and beyond being able to see the main winkles talk about the takedown and secondary market, you know, the secondary markets, a part of the culture. It's a part of the bourbon culture, and I don't want to talk about it all the time, but it's definitely a part of what it is. You know, there was one big sweep were group

1:03:00
kind of disappeared overnight. But in my opinion, that might be over. And I would venture to see that we will see the rise of a large secondary group once again in 2020. Are you the admin guy? I am not the admin, I do not have that much free time in my life and I don't want to be. I don't want to be that. Imagine the hate you get as a secondary market admin. Oh, gosh, yeah. All the work for zero pain. No, thank you. That doesn't sound good to me. But I mean, we were already kind of seeing it. There's there's groups already that are creeping on to eight 910 thousand people. So hitting hitting 2550 probably might not be that far of a stretch here in 2020.

1:03:41
Yeah, and I think I like that prediction. What's your prediction for the for the year?

1:03:46
Oh, gosh, what you on the spot there?

1:03:51
I don't know. I've thought about a few things. I think I still think like barrel programs are going to get reduced this year. I think they're going to stop

1:04:01
Cut more single barrel opportunities for people I think

1:04:06
the distillery see them as a headache and as a pain and you know, I'm always surprised I'll leave there and I'm like, they let us do this. Now just yeah, you know, just

1:04:17
go and drink barrel proof whiskey and you know, go see you later, you know, it is still kind of magnificent, you know, it's one of the best things. We've been doing this so long and it's still like you're like a kid going to the candy store? You know, it's just I can't believe we do this. But I don't know, I think I think we'll see reduction them and then you'll see but with that you'll see more product offerings and from the city also think they're reducing outgoing because they're I mean, let's let's face it for a while, like four roses had mean they're doing two barrels every single day like they've got to run an age doc at some point. Do you think it's an H doc issue? Do you think it's really just like a like an overhead issue? I think I think it's

1:05:00
A resource issue I think they have the stock I think they want us to use the stock further because we're consumers of those brands already as a single barrel buyer and so I just think they want to continue to grow the market and use that juice to help keep growing new new consumers because it's a pain that is for us to come here and you know, individually bottle all these and yeah, I just I think there want to continue to grow that new consumer base. Now here's a question you to have started to a little private barrels yourself right for the pursuit series. Can you all see yourself giving up some of your honey barrels for for private barrel pics? We've already started we've already started it. We've done a few already. And you know, like I said for us we do it at it's very small, very boutique kind of way. So you're selecting stuff that we have already pre sent me it's just like every other distillery right you go there. There's a tasting panel that's already selected the barrels. We've already selected the barrels. Now you finer grain

1:06:00
and fine tune into that barrel. But again, we're we have a we have a smaller amount of inventory but we do it on a come as come as you know as needed basis. Yeah. So here's my prediction for 2020 I think you're going to see about 10 celebrities coming to come into American whiskey. We saw a little trickle of them this year.

1:06:20
I know of many who are coming in are asking around and looking. And that's why I started a the best celebrity whiskey category for my awards as because I want to be able to say I want I want people to come in if they're going to I think it's great. The celebrities are coming first of all, because that brings more awareness to everything. But I want to make sure that not just the spokespeople, but as as brand owners, yes, owners like majority in some cases. And the thing is, is they want to get involved. They want to pick the whiskey and I want to reward that. You know, I want to reward celebrities who are getting themselves

1:07:00
involve like a clown from Slipknot you know probably one of the top five bands in the in the world right now their, their their new album

1:07:10
was the first like hard rock album to be number one it like took off in it and it took down Old Town road or whatever. And my kids love that song.

1:07:24
But so he blended that whiskey, he blended it. And I'm sure he's not going around saying I'm a master blender and or any of that crap, but I just think it's really cool that you see someone at that level, getting their hands dirty a little bit. And the same with Matthew McConaughey. Like we, we see his, you know, kind of creative side. He's very, very involved there and all that but he legitimately participated in the creation of that whiskey. And I think that should be rewarded in some way but so in the next

1:08:00
year do you think people take a brand like that? More? They'll take it more seriously or they scoff at it because our people are people will always scoff at it. Yeah. For sure. And and even to an extent all three of us will. But, and but I mean, it kind of goes I totally agree with you, but I think it was, it was I think Kroger had a release of that Slipknot whiskey and they only had I don't know had only a couple hundred bottles or something like that. And they said like 2000 people showed up right for a signing day like 2000 people here just in level I mean, credible Yeah, really, right. I mean, and that's that kind of just shows you the power of what these people can drive to this particular category. And I did I had a stage appearance with them at louder than life. And you know, I had probably, you know, in the in that big bourbon bar area and out I probably had about 4000 people just sitting there listening to me interview clown

1:08:58
and so yes

1:09:00
Those people bring an audience to bourbon that we don't get otherwise. And here's the thing is like we are, we are we have this podcast, I have a magazine I've got I got other things and like we, we, we want to educate people. We don't want people just kicking back and drink and and if people can if these, these celebrities can bring like consumers that would be going to vodka or tequila otherwise, and we can have an opportunity to like educate them. I'm all for that. I think that's great. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think if we get more people that are even listen to this podcast, even better works out for me. So with that, I think that's gonna wrap up our last show of 2019 our predictions for 2020. So fellas, thank you again for coming on. Yeah, I mean, it was it was fantastic. When we covered a lot of ground. Some best whiskies? I mean, did you have a best whiskey of 2019? I hope we do. We actually said, I haven't. You know, the first thing that pops in my mind is probably

1:09:59
probably owed for

1:10:00
birthday party and this year it was so good I'm not usually a scarf a birthday where I'm like why do people care about it? Yeah No but this year it was pretty damn good like so I'm just my first reaction yeah and one of mine for myself is that it's it's one that's consistently been pretty mediocre for years and this year it just rose I really liked it and it fit that you know we were talking about earlier fit that profile that you kind of want just have this like buttery caramel texture. And I'm not even able to get a bottle of but it was this year's Eagle rare 17 for the media samples.

1:10:37
And chocolate sexy velvety I was highly impressed with it even though I'll never see a bottle get a bottle of it. I was very highly impressed with it. And then I think part of the everyday category you already said kind of old force awry. I'm gonna go for as a small batch select. I still think it was fantastic, great entrance to this year. All right. With that I want to say guys, thank you again for coming on the show again today. It was great to have everybody here. We're going to start going

1:11:00
Nothing, I get a syllabus agenda. I know now we have to really work. Yeah. Just to bring you more great content in 2020. Actually, Ryan and I are about to get yelled at. Yeah, I

1:11:11
can't wait for this hazing session. Pray for them. All right. Cheers, everybody. We'll see you all next week. Cheers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai